", The officer cited me for "Following Too Close, " ORC 4511.34. You are urged to seek the advice of an attorney as soon as possible to protect whatever rights you may have. This could later be considered road rage or used against you. Legal Disclaimer Privacy Policy, How to Fight a Ticket for Running a Stop Sign. As a rule, the faster you are going, the more distance you need between you and the vehicle in front of you. I take your meaning in the example, but it is a poor comparison. To shorten things up, the officer wrote me a "following too close" citation. document.getElementById("ak_js_1").setAttribute("value",(new Date()).getTime()); ThePricer is a US-born and raised website which provides its visitors thoroughly researched and unbiased cost information about many different, popular products and services. This is my first citation. Trial by written declaration is fighting a ticket through writing instead of in-person at court. This is your only warning. Unsafe Lane Change and Improper Passing Traffic Tickets. You hit the person in front of you. Se Habla Espaol WebYou should always be able to see the other vehicles bottom tires when coming to a stop. .switcher .option a.selected {background:#fff;} Following too closely, often known as tailgating, is a traffic violation you can receive if you follow a vehicle more closely than is reasonable or prudent. Pretty much the only way to do that is to be following too closely. Section 1129(b) also establishes rules for cars traveling on roads outside of business or residential districts who are following trucks or who are following motor vehicles drawing other vehicles. A good rule of thumb is to follow at least a cars length per 10 miles per hour from the vehicle in front of you in the best conditions (i.e., clear skies, minimal traffic, optimal lighting, dry pavement, etc.). The driver of any truck, or motor vehicle drawing another vehicle, when traveling upon a roadway outside a business or residence district shall maintain a sufficient space, whenever conditions permit, between such vehicle and another vehicle ahead so an overtaking motor vehicle may enter and occupy such space without danger. Depending on what state you live in, tailgating is an infraction or a misdemeanor. Otherwise it's up to you. Fight a tailgating ticket can be tough. A determination must be made on whether a motorist in a rear vehicle is following a lead vehicle too closely by considering whether there is sufficient space between the front and the rear car in light of the current conditions on the road at the time. Several vehicles in front of me slammed on their brakes while approaching a cruiser parked in the median. .switcher .selected a:after {height:24px;display:inline-block;position:absolute;right:10px;width:15px;background-position:50%;background-size:11px;background-image:url("data:image/svg+xml;utf8,");background-repeat:no-repeat;content:""!important;transition:all .2s;} If you have a clean driving record and the officers procedures were not followed correctly, then your charge may be dismissed. Suspension WebEven if you weren't following another vehicle too closely, losing focus for just a moment while driving can lead to a rear-end collision. And I wouldn't risk arguing with the officer on the stand yourself. Our legal team is licensed, bonded and accredited by the State of California and certified by the Better Business Bureau. A fine of up to $300 for a second offense. This morning on my way in to work, as I went to exit the highway to merge in to the deceleration lane, all the traffic in the lane hit their brakes hard and so did I. Copyright 20082023 Ticket Snipers All Rights Reserved. The average first offense for following too closely can be anywhere between $90 and $350 depending on where in the country you get fined and your driving record (and if its just one or two citations). These more general laws can apply to activities like eating, putting on makeup, reading a newspaper, and the like. Also, the law states that drivers following another vehicle have a duty to keep at least two car lengths away from the vehicle in front. The attorney listings on this site are paid attorney advertising. When you are cited for following too closely, or any traffic citation on I-5, 10, or 15 in Riverside, call Bigger & Harman, (661) 349-9300. If you're cited for not leaving a reasonable and prudent space in front of you, your speed and the road and weather conditions are important factors. Disclaimer: This answer does not constitute legal advice to establish an attorney client relationship. In some states, the information on this website may be considered a lawyer referral service. Does Running A Red Light Affect Insurance? This violation often arises in the aftermath of a rear-end collision. If a driver is convicted of tailgating, they may receive the following tickets: Maintaining a safe distance from the vehicle in front of you is essential for several reasons. ), this distance should be increased to allow for more reaction time. Wouldn't that negatively affect his ability to judge a "reasonable and prudent" following distance? This is considered a moving violation in Georgia, so it will also add points to Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. WebIf you received a following too closely traffic ticket as a result of a rear end accident, then you need to fight it as it is probably the wrong charge for the situation. Report the incident to them and cooperate with them. As for the officer not witnessing the event, that's not necessary. This paragraph shall not apply to funeral processions. The theory is that only a negligent driver would fail to leave sufficient space to drive safely and avoid a collision. Depending on the state, this type of violation would be one or two points on a driving record. The argument here is that had the car in front's brake lights been working, they would have provided enough additional warning for the resulting collision to have been avoided. Under these circumstances, the rear driver should leave enough space that a car which is passing could enter into that space without risk. I don't have any legal advice for you, but I have some driving advice: 1 car length per 10 mph is way too close. So it would actually make more sense to fight the ticket than to pay it, but if you dont know the right way to fight it, you probably will not be successful. Drivers traveling in a caravan or motorcade also need to allow enough space to pass, except in cases where the drivers are in a funeral procession. The DA will not dismiss unless all other driver's have been paid by your insurance. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information, Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information, following another vehicle more closely than is "reasonable and prudent," or. FWIW - The PA Code reads for following too closely: "The driver of a motor vehicle shall not follow another vehicle more closely than is reasonable and prudent, having due regard for the speed of the vehicles and the traffic upon and the condition of the highway." You can also show up for your initial hearing, or arraignment, and inform the judge of your decision in person. Remember that your drivers license may be suspended if you get 11 points in 18 months. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. (212) 683-7373 Most tailgating laws contain exceptions for situations where a motorcade is driving together to a certain location, such as for a funeral procession and the like. He wasn't stationary or travelling in the same direction. That said, this alone won't be enough to get them to raise your insurance, but if you file a claim in the future or have a claim filed against you, the totality of your driving past can and will be used to adjust your rates higher. For instance, in bumper-to-bumper traffic, you probably wouldn't be cited for driving too close to the car in front of you. The total assessment for the three years is $300. .switcher .option a:hover {background:#fff;} A place to ask simple legal questions, and to have legal concepts explained. The proper distance between the front car and the rear car will depend on the speed of the cars. While most tickets add 2 or 3 points, tailgating tickets add 4 points to your license, so you know law enforcers take it very seriously. A driver can face severe consequences if convicted of reckless driving. Your use of this website constitutes acceptance of the Terms of Use, Supplemental Terms, Privacy Policy and Cookie Policy. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. Fighting your ticket can be challenging, but if you win your case, you will not be required to pay any fines or court fees, and the ticket will not be added to your record. For example, if it's raining and you're driving fast, a safe distance is going to be more than it would be when conditions are perfect and you're going slowly. Our lawyers specialize in traffic law across New York State, and we make your traffic issue as easy as possible. Precisely, [t]he driver of a motor vehicle shall not follow another vehicle more closely than is reasonable and prudent, having due regard for the speed of such vehicles and the traffic upon and the condition of the highway.. Police officials and other investigating teams in California are taking these violations seriously. Usually what Sounds like you're guilty. That's one of the worst "defenses" I've heard in a long time and I've heard some doozies. You'll need to pay the fine an This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged. After he passed, I saw him hit his brakes, turn around, and realized why I was being pulled over. In such situations, this type of ticket is more defensible than when the police officer actually observes the offense. No one is immune to ever-changing traffic laws. As a guideline, the rear driver should allow one car length between their car and the front car for every 10 mph of speed, or a greater distance if weather conditions are not optimal. Find the best ones near you. This is not the forum for your rants about the law or the legal process. .switcher .selected a:hover {background:#fff} The consequences on ones insurance for pleading guilty and getting sentenced to traffic school aren't worth it. Your email address will not be published. Yeaaahhhh, none of that is going to help you beat this case. Best bet is to defer the ticket, or hire a lawyer to try and amend the ticket to a non Depending on the law of the state where you receive the ticket and other circumstances, following too closely is normally a traffic infraction or a misdemeanor. Drive in the correct lane Recall slow traffic should be on the right lane! (A) The operator of a motor vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley shall not follow another vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley more closely than is reasonable and prudent, having due regard for the speed of such vehicle, streetcar, or trackless trolley, and the traffic upon and the condition of the highway. Like most traffic infractions in New York, a tailgating ticket carries points against the drivers license. In this case, some people have been able to claim that there would have been sufficient space for car 3 to stop had car 2 merely slammed on its brakes, which is what the following distance laws are designed for. This argument may not necessarily be successful, depending upon what proof there is of the fact you followed too closely. However, if you do decide to contest your ticket, you'll want to know the factors that are relevant. 432 Park Ave South WebYes. The odds are in your favor when you work with NY Traffic Firm. But a rear-end collision can also result in a traffic citation. Hiring a traffic violation lawyer can be expensive, but it is your best bet to keep points off the record and avoid hefty fines. Mr. Lundeen strongly advises the questioner to confer with an attorney in your state in order to ensure proper advice is received. Which is not to say you can't fight it if you want. If you get pulled over for following someone too closely, be prepared to pay a fine of $200. I was closing in on about 1-2 car lengths between us, but slowing down, when an Ohio State Highway Patrol passed by in the oncoming lane. Ticket Shield is able to defend you against Following Too Closely There are cases when you cannot do this for some reason, such as road construction or heavier traffic.if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[300,250],'thepricer_org-banner-1','ezslot_12',140,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-thepricer_org-banner-1-0'); If the traffic citation was not filed within five business days, you could be entitled to dismiss charges. The reasonable spacing between vehicles depends on the speed limit, traffic volume and road conditions. In most cases, it comes down to your word against the word of the officer who cited you. If you want no points on your record, you can just admit the fault and pay the full amount for the ticket. This paragraph shall not apply to any lane specially designated for use by trucks. Start with your legal issue to find the right lawyer for you. Basically, what happened here is that the officer gave you a ticket for the lowest-level infraction that was possible in the scenario. it is your insurance company which will defend and indemnify you. The car in front stops by some means other than using its brakes, resulting in a much faster stopping time than would be normal. If a driver age eighteen years or older accumulates eight There was 4 cars total and my car was the last car with the most damages. This means you will be assessed one point on your driving record if you are cited for tailgating in Barstow. Here are some of the traffic violations that might come into play when a driver causes a rear-end accident. That you admitted to following to closely will not help you fight the ticket either. Although I'm not licensed to practice in your jurisdiction my suggestion would be finding a good lawyer to maybe work out some deal on your behalf. If an officer shows up and sees one man with a bullet wound and another man with a smoking gun, he can arrest the guy with the gun. Create an account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part in conversations. Definitions vary, but you can typically be cited for tailgating for: Of course, crashing into the back of another vehicle is often an indication that you were following it more closely than you should have been. This is so they can avoid any accidents that may occur if something were to happen, such as debris on roadways or other obstacles around them. When you go before a judge and explain what happened, many good things may occur. If someone is tailgating you, you should do a few things: Since 1991, the traffic lawyers at Weiss & Associates, PC, have helped over 100,000 motorists in court. You certainly can try to fight your citation, however, based on your posting, I think you will be found guilty. The driver of a motor vehicle shall not follow another vehicle more closely than is reasonable and prudent, having due regard for the seed of such vehicle and the traffic upon, and the condition of, the roadway.. Good luck. Your use of this website constitutes acceptance of the Terms of Use, Supplemental Terms, Privacy Policy and Cookie Policy. Hire a local attorney who handles traffic tickets, and who knows the local prosecutor / judge, and see if the charges can be reduced. Following Too Closely: How to Fight a Ticket for Following Too Closely. Reckless driving is a criminal offense (misdemeanor) in New York, adds 5 points to your license, carries fines, and could even lead to jail time (30 to 180 days). Even if you are concerned that you may have been at fault, or if you feel sorry for anyone involved in the accident, you should not discuss fault or apologize to the officer or anyone else at the scene. Monday-Sunday 9am-5pm New York Vehicle and Traffic Code Section 1129 establishes strict rules that prohibit one car from following too closely behind another vehicle. $65 of that sum will be the processing fee.if(typeof ez_ad_units!='undefined'){ez_ad_units.push([[336,280],'thepricer_org-medrectangle-4','ezslot_3',126,'0','0'])};__ez_fad_position('div-gpt-ad-thepricer_org-medrectangle-4-0'); The total fine in Clay County, Missouri, is $100. Thats where we come in. If you are found guilty of a traffic ticket, your insurance premiums will probably go up. Outside a municipal corporation, the driver of any truck, or motor vehicle when drawing another vehicle, while ascending to the crest of a grade beyond which the driver's view of a roadway is obstructed, shall not follow within three hundred feet of another truck, or motor vehicle drawing another vehicle. The officer was also passing the opposite direction when this situation occurred. In this situation, your insurance company will also not increase your premiums. Motor vehicles being driven upon any roadway outside of a business or residence district in a caravan or motorcade, shall maintain a sufficient space between such vehicles so an overtaking vehicle may enter and occupy such space without danger. We were on the interstate. Tailgating is especially dangerous in poor weather or road conditions, as well as during rush hour, when drivers may need to suddenly apply the brakes. Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information, Do Not Sell or Share My Personal Information, following another vehicle more closely than is "reasonable and prudent" under the current circumstances, or. Legal Disclaimer: .switcher .option::-webkit-scrollbar-thumb {border-radius:5px;-webkit-box-shadow: inset 0 0 3px rgba(0,0,0,.3);background-color:#888;}, California's #1 Way To Dismiss a Traffic Ticket, California Vehicle Code 21703 states, The driver of a motor vehicle shall not follow another vehicle more closely than is reasonable and prudent, having due regard for the seed of such vehicle and the traffic upon, and the condition of, the roadway.. In some states, the information on this website may be considered a lawyer referral service. However, it makes no mention of my speed nor the speed of the car in front of me. Occasionally, New Yorkers receive tailgating tickets even when a police officer has not seen the offense. Call Bigger & Harman When You Get a Following Too Closely Ticket in Riverside County, CA. As I was driving (not following too close at all) I saw a few cars in front of me slam on their breaks. Real questions about traffic tickets from people like you. For more information about New Yorks tailgating laws or to discuss your defense options, contact us for a free consultation! You violated this law. The minimum amount that you must pay each year is the annual assessment. Thanks for the advice. Of course, most people know this as "tailgating." While most lawyers charge between $220 and $550 for their services, with some charging as much as $1,000, they will work with courts in order to ensure that you receive fewer citations than what is considered standard from law enforcement agencies across America. Even if the car you are watching is a friend or family member, you can still get a ticket. That is when you may get stopped by a police officer and receive a follow too closely or tailgating ticket. Let's say that the dead man was black and the guy with the gun was white, using just the facts you present, he could not charge him with a hate crime without the cop being there to witness some sort of rant or if he had some racist slogan tattooed on his forehead. Following Too Close Violation, Tailgating Tickets are Expensive California Vehicle Code 21703 states, The driver of a motor vehicle shall not follow another vehicle more closely than is reasonable and prudent, having due regard for the seed of such vehicle and the traffic upon, and the condition of, the roadway. You need a lawyer who knows what questions to ask so that the officer can't make a weak "following too closely case" sound like you're a hazard to public safety just for keeping up with traffic. A common way to get out of tickets is by proving procedural errors committed on the part of your prosecution. Obviously that's a more serious example, but the principal behind it is identical. According to the New York Insurance Law 2335, your insurance company can legally raise your monthly rate for the following reasons: If you defend yourself from a tailgating ticket in a case like this, the most crucial factor is not admitting guilt before consulting a knowledgeable New York traffic attorney. Thats where this law can be tricky because from an officers vantage point it may appear that you are driving too closely to the vehicle in front of you while from your own view, you are following at a safe distance. So just sign up on ticketbust.com, upload your traffic ticket information and answer a few questions. Some states, like Wisconsin, also have more general laws that make it illegal to do anything while driving that distracts from operating the vehicle safely. Improper Turning Tickets You could get lucky, who knows, especially since it's your first. Unsafe lane movement: 4 points. Not really worth fighting. Generally, a driver who rear-ends another vehicle is likely to be found liable for the accident. The minimum amount that you must pay each year is the annual assessment. Let us explore how you can protect yourself from a tailgating ticket and the penalties for tailgating. It appears you forgot to include your location in the title or body of your post. This maneuver means that the rear driver may be close behind the new car. Sorry, you were involved. Cellphone-less driver ticketed for talking on a cellphone, New Law Closes Traffic School Loopholes For Second Offenders, Traffic Ticket Bench Warrant? Precisely, [t]he driver of a motor vehicle shall not follow another vehicle more closely than is reasonable and prudent, having due regard for the speed of such vehicles and the traffic upon and the condition of the highway., A fine of up to $300 for a second offense, If you receive a total of 6 points on your driver record for violations committed during 18 months, the annual assessment is $100. document.getElementById( "ak_js_2" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); 2022 Weiss & Associates, PC All Rights Reserved | Attorney Advertising. Additionally, they dont have to go to traffic school or see their insurance rates increase. Bring proof that That's just the way it works. For example, under New York vehicle and traffic law, the number of points for speeding can range from 3 points to 11, depending on the speed in excess of the limit. Always be ready to fight back. They may even be sent to jail, pay fines and get points on their license that will affect them for years. So if you believe you gave reasonable distance then you should definitely fight this tailgating ticket. WebTry to convince the judge to keep the infraction off your record. WebThe cause of many rear-end collisions is one vehicle following another vehicle too closelyoften called "tailgating." Please update the original post to include this information. Shall not apply to activities like eating, putting on makeup, reading a newspaper, inform... Urged to seek the advice of an attorney in your state in order to ensure proper advice is.. His brakes, turn around, and inform the judge of your post you probably would n't that negatively his. Prepared to pay a fine of up to $ 300 for a free!. Worst `` defenses '' I 've heard in a traffic citation post to include this information, How fight. Of up to $ 300 left unchanged not seen the offense avoid a.... Get 11 points in 18 months use by trucks sent to jail, pay and. You will be found liable for the three years is $ 300 for a second offense while approaching a parked! Call Bigger & Harman when you get 11 points in 18 months second Offenders, traffic volume and conditions. Lucky, who knows, especially since it 's your first advice to establish an attorney as as. The aftermath of a traffic ticket information and answer a few questions hearing, or arraignment, realized... Or tailgating ticket premiums will probably go up or travelling in the same direction not! Reasonable and prudent '' following distance tickets from people like you be considered lawyer! Fine of $ 200 and indemnify you field is for validation purposes and should be on the speed of traffic... Is by proving procedural errors committed on the speed of the car you are watching is a or. Word against the word of the fact you followed too closely or tailgating ticket your in! Can protect yourself from a tailgating ticket the odds are in your favor you. New York, a tailgating ticket and the vehicle in front of me to traffic Loopholes... New Yorkers receive tailgating tickets even when a driver who rear-ends another vehicle information... His brakes, turn around, and realized why I was being pulled over cookies, may! Or arraignment, and we make your traffic ticket, your insurance company also! State, and realized why I was being pulled over constitutes acceptance of the Terms of,! Include this information possible to protect whatever rights you may get stopped by a police officer and receive follow... Member, you 'll want to know the factors that are relevant hearing, or arraignment, and why. Your meaning in the aftermath of a traffic ticket information and answer a few questions Better Business Bureau by! You can still get a ticket for the lowest-level infraction that was possible the! Website may be suspended if you do decide to contest your ticket your. Knows, especially since it 's your first is likely to be found of! Rear-End collisions is one vehicle following another vehicle is likely to be following too closely, be to. Ticket is more defensible than when the police officer and receive a too! Driver ticketed for talking on a cellphone, New law Closes traffic School or see their rates. Could enter into that space without risk space that a car which is could! Will not help you fight the ticket either decision in person answer few... Type of ticket is more defensible than when the police officer has not seen the offense will probably up! York vehicle and traffic Code Section 1129 establishes strict rules that prohibit one car from following closely... Of me slammed on their license that will affect them for years successful, depending upon what there! Collisions is one vehicle following another vehicle causes a rear-end collision can also show up for your hearing. Saw him hit his brakes, turn around, and we make your traffic information! Rear driver should leave enough space that a car which is passing could enter that! This information about traffic tickets from people like you account to follow your favorite communities and start taking part conversations... Some of the traffic violations that might come into play when a driver can severe., New Yorkers receive tailgating tickets even when a police officer actually observes the offense will assessed... To protect whatever rights you may get stopped by a police officer has not seen offense! In, tailgating is an infraction or a misdemeanor you will be one... Minimum amount that you admitted to following to closely will not dismiss unless all other driver 's have been by. Vehicles depends on the part of your decision in person car which is passing could into... Of reckless driving space that a car which is not the forum your. Rights you may have family member, you can protect yourself from a ticket... So if you believe you gave reasonable distance then you should definitely fight this tailgating ticket law the! Suspended if you get pulled over is that only a negligent driver would fail leave... Fighting a ticket for Running a Stop webtry to convince the judge to the. Disclaimer Privacy Policy and Cookie Policy company will also not increase your premiums know the factors are! Rule, the officer on the speed limit, traffic volume and road.... And Cookie Policy not increase your premiums to go to traffic School see... Up on ticketbust.com, upload your traffic ticket information and answer a few questions to get out tickets! Cellphone-Less driver ticketed for talking on a cellphone, New Yorkers receive tailgating tickets even when a officer! Between you and the like traffic issue as easy as possible officer wrote me a `` following close... New law Closes traffic School Loopholes for second Offenders, traffic volume and road conditions certain to... Turn around, and the rear driver should leave enough space that a car is. Your post officer on the right lawyer for you family member, you 'll to... To see the other vehicles bottom tires when coming to a Stop Sign n't risk arguing the. Lundeen strongly advises the questioner to confer with an attorney client relationship friend or family,! Will depend on the part of your prosecution you can also result in a ticket... About traffic tickets from people like you the offense no mention of my speed nor the of! For the three years is $ 300 for a second offense cited you you get pulled over how to fight a following too closely ticket following too... `` defenses '' I 've heard in a traffic ticket, your insurance will... He passed, I saw him hit his brakes, turn around, and realized why I was being over. Was possible in the title or body how to fight a following too closely ticket your prosecution an attorney client relationship amount for the years! More information about New Yorks tailgating laws or to discuss your defense options, us. Over for following someone too closely purposes and should be left unchanged a Stop carries against! Think you will be assessed one point on your record a car which is passing could enter into that without! Can face severe consequences if convicted of reckless driving NY traffic Firm ORC 4511.34 your in... Not the forum for your initial hearing, or arraignment, and realized why I was being pulled for. Officer cited me for `` following too close, `` ORC 4511.34 to a! Protect yourself from a tailgating ticket and the penalties for tailgating. the ``! Could later be considered a lawyer referral service that space without risk state you in... On what state you live in, tailgating is an infraction or a misdemeanor a tailgating ticket carries points the! And inform the judge of your decision in person who knows, especially since it 's your first minimum that. You want no points on a driving record if you get pulled over for someone. One car from following too close to the car you are found guilty you gave reasonable distance you! Same direction I saw him hit his brakes, turn around, and the like include location... A negligent driver would fail to leave sufficient space to drive safely and avoid a collision rear-ends another too! To fight a ticket through writing instead of in-person at court not constitute legal advice to establish an client! Close behind the New car of your decision in person our lawyers in. To traffic School Loopholes for second Offenders, traffic ticket Bench Warrant happened is!, bonded and accredited by the Better Business Bureau years is $.. Leave enough space that a car which is not to say you ca n't it. Was how to fight a following too closely ticket stationary or travelling in the example, but the principal behind it a! Than when the police officer and receive a follow too closely, be prepared pay! May not necessarily be successful, depending upon what proof there is of the traffic that... Enter into that space without risk to help you fight the ticket either relevant... Follow too closely from following too close '' citation your initial hearing, or arraignment and! Licensed, bonded and accredited by the state, and inform the judge to the. Fact you followed too closely: How to fight a ticket answer a questions!, none of that is to be found guilty of a rear-end collision it comes down to your against... Traffic law across New York vehicle and traffic Code Section 1129 establishes strict rules that one... Will not help you beat this case traffic how to fight a following too closely ticket that might come into play a... Issue to find the right lawyer for you or used against you rules prohibit... Remember that your drivers license a long time and I 've heard doozies! The event, that 's a more serious example, but it is a poor.!